May the Great Debate Begin...

5/13/2010 10:57:08 PM
UnitedSkins
5/13/2010 10:57:08 PM Report Abuse

The Celtics eliminated the Cavs a few minutes ago...

Will he stay or will he go?

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kidkrazy
5/13/2010 11:10:50 PM Report Abuse
@UnitedSkins

He stay's, I dont see any team that gives him a better chance at a ring...

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MIlitaryRD
5/13/2010 11:11:35 PM Report Abuse
@UnitedSkins

I could honestly care less about him- Conts on the almost Quad double tonight Lebitch-

 

Did you see how pathetic the Cavs looksed in the last Minute thirty of the game?

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dcsportfan10
5/13/2010 11:16:02 PM Report Abuse
@MIlitaryRD

There is no way he will win a ring with the Cavs in the near future. There team is going to be broken up due to age and contracts during the off season. Lebron needs to hightail it if he wants his ring before hes 40. Hit up DWadye and ask him where he's going.

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Dores
5/13/2010 11:38:32 PM Report Abuse
@dcsportfan10

They quit!!  If 'Bron is the leader then he let them quit.  Dont even start to talk about his greatness.

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Cadet04
5/13/2010 11:39:18 PM Report Abuse
@dcsportfan10

I hope he tears both his achilles so I don't have to hear this conversation EVERY DAY on sportscenter, fanhouse, espn.com, foxsports.com, yahoo! sports, etc.  for the next 3 months.  I'd rather he just come out and say tomorrow morning "I'm going to New York" or "I'm staying in Cleveland" so we can all be spared the drama that Sportscenter will inevitably blow completely out of proportion with literal up-to-the-minute updates everyday.

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MACInsider
5/13/2010 11:54:01 PM Report Abuse
@Cadet04

If the Cavs couldn't do it this year, you have to wonder if they ever will in Lebron's career, whether he's there or not.

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Geagle2
5/13/2010 11:58:28 PM Report Abuse
@MACInsider

amen, cadet4

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UnitedSkins
5/14/2010 12:01:41 AM Report Abuse
@MACInsider

No matter where LeBron is next year, he is going to need to change the way he plays if he wants to win some rings. What separated the Celtics from the Cavs in this series is that the Celtics are a team and the Cavs are one player. What I mean to say is that the Celtics actually operate under a team philosophy, whereas the Cavs operate under a philosophy of getting LeBron the ball. If LeBron goes through his career playing on teams who run a "Pass it to Tucker" offensive strategy, then he's not going to win any championships because he's in his peak right now.

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jjimboo
5/14/2010 10:46:43 AM Report Abuse
@UnitedSkins

United Skins:

I agree that NBA teams win championships with team play, not individual play, and that LeBron needs to be more a part of a team offense. Nonetheless, if LeBron had been playing for the Lakers and Phil Jackson the past 2 years, in place of Kobe, do you think just maybe he would have won a ring either last year or this year? 

When considering LeBron's game, I think people need to remember the playoff game he had a year or two ago when he scored something like 25 straight points --  at the time described by analysts as one of the greatest all-time playoff performances.  Also, remember the criticism that Kevin Garnett took when he had trouble winning a playoff series with the Timberwolves. That changed quickly once he was teamed up wiith the Celtics.

At 25, he may or may not be at his basketball peak, but I would be shocked if he never wins a ring.  As Steve Nash likes to say "We'll see".  

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UnitedSkins
5/14/2010 11:03:09 AM Report Abuse
@jjimboo

If he was in LA under Phil Jackson, then yes. I think he would have won a championship, because there's no way that Phil Jackson would let LeBron play the way that he has played his entire career and that he would be a part of a team-play mindset instead of the individual-play mindset he's operated in his entire career. But, about LeBron getting a ring and whether or not he's at his peak: the guys in the NBA who have longevity in terms of being dominant players in the league are the guys who possess elite basketball skill (Kobe, Jordan, Bird, Stockton, Nash). The NBA, now more than ever, is a young man's league and what makes LeBron either the best or 2nd best player in the league is not his basketball skill. What makes him so good is just how athletically superior he is to everyone else on the floor every single night. In five years, he won't be as fast as he is right now and he won't be able to explode to the rim like he can right now and he will have to rely on skill instead of athleticism to dominate games. Where his game stands right now, I don't think his basketball skill by itself is good enough to rank him among the best in the league. And you can say that it's not relevant, but it is because eventually that's all he's gonna have.

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4Loveofthegame
5/14/2010 11:44:32 AM Report Abuse
@UnitedSkins

Lebron plays the way he does because he can and he has no one around him to score.  Kobe won his rings with Shaq and last year with a pretty good supporting cast.  Lebron has who, Shaq who is done and Mo Williams?  Lebron is the best player on the planet and needs one more good guy around him to get to the top, whether it is in Cleveland or somewhere else. 

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CocaCola
5/14/2010 11:57:35 AM Report Abuse
@UnitedSkins

Notwithstanding two really bad playoff games to end the series, and an atrocious number of turnovers in those games, I believe LeBron has an extraordinary skill level, particularly for a player his size.  Listed at 6'8" and 250 pounds (he appears bigger to me even standing next to Shaq), he has a great handle for his size, extreme range on his 3 pt shots (33% for the season -- a similar sized Durant 36.5% this season, and the great shooting Bird 37.6% for his career), a spectacular left hand; and he is a great finisher.  His assists to TO average this season of 8.6 to 3.4 compares favorably to the wondrous Steve Nash at 11 to 3.6 -- impressive to me given their size difference.  Other than Magic, and maybe Bird, who else his size has ever played like LeBron as a ballhandler/passer?  Not many.

Although clearly a young man's league, at 25 LeBron is hardly an old player and should have 4 to 6 more years  before his athletic skills begin to diminish in any significant way.  By that time, I would bet that he will have developed more of a mid-range or fallaway jumpshot, similar to Kobe and MJ.

Regarding a future ring, again, we will see.  By the way, LeBron was not only a team player during the most recent Olympics, but the obvious team leader -- on the Gold Medal USA  team.

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MIlitaryRD
5/14/2010 12:11:25 PM Report Abuse
@CocaCola

Obvious leader? You Must be High.

You Know why The Magic Are so good? Dwight Howard makes everyone on his team better.

You know why Paul Pierce and Ray Allen Won a Championship Two years ago? Because Kevin Garnett isn't just the MAN he is a MAN and a leader.

You know why Shaq and Dwanye Wade won a Championship? Because Dwanye Wade STEPPED up his game in the Playoffs to another level.

You know why Lebron Hasn't won a Champiopnship? It isn't supporting Class, don't give me that, becasue in reality D-wade has the same amount of Talent around him that Lebron Does, It's because he is the King. He is Already the king, why win more. I have never seen a grown man bitch and Whine more than Lebron James. The amount of plays he threw up his arms and complained rather than played defense is appauling. Screw Lebron And screw the Team that gets him. Kobe Is a Better basketball and team player with HIS size and position in factors and Lebron is a Whiny Baby-

I honestly pray he never wins a championship in his career. Even with the scoring and MVP titles, if Lebron James doesn't win a Championship, he should go down as the biggest disappointment, after all that hype, in sports history.

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CocaCola
5/14/2010 12:19:40 PM Report Abuse
@MIlitaryRD

Road, You appear to be an angry man.

By the way, I have never mentioned his supportig cast.  Regarding whether or not he is a leader, it would be interesting to get Coach K's perspective and his Olympic teammates on that.  Back to KG, he was also subjected to similar criticism until he won in Boston.

I hope LeBron wins a ring just to make you even more angry

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kidkrazy
5/14/2010 12:28:24 PM Report Abuse
@MIlitaryRD

I do agree with alot of what Rd is saying, especially the opening points, but I think Kobe throws his hands up and complains just as much as Lebron, if not more.

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UnitedSkins
5/14/2010 1:06:19 PM Report Abuse
@kidkrazy

4loveofthegame:

People do more with less than LeBron has managed to do all the time.

Michael Jordan's Supporting Cast

Harper: 7 and 2

Longley: 9 and 5

Rodman: 5 and 14

Pippen:  19 and 6

 

LeBron's Supporting Cast

Shaq: 12 and 7

Jamison: 16 and 8 (20 and 9 before he joined the "King")

Williams: 15 and 5

Varejao: 8 and 7

 

The problem isn't the players around LeBron. If the Cavs played like a team then they'd be fine. The problem is that their offense is based around LeBron doing everything on his own. It doesn't matter who they sign if LeBron keeps playing the way he's played his whole career.

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Mamba
5/14/2010 3:39:36 PM Report Abuse
@UnitedSkins

The Cavs do not have the right talent around LBJ.

The key to the mix is having the right players to create matchup problems. That becomes much more important in the playoffs where teams can set their defense to stop any single player in the league. In order to win, you need to create a "pick your poison" problem for the other team.

The Lakers win Championships because of Gasol and Odom. Of course Kobe is key, but teams can't stop Kobe, the size advantage inside and Odom. Pick your poison. Everyone else on the team is supporting cast.

The Celtics won before the Lakers because the Big Three create consistent matchup problems. The emergence of Rondo only makes them tougher.

Orlando is tough to defend because Howard is the dominant big man in the league. He shrinks the defense and that opens it up for the shooters (and those shooters are so long that recovering defenders do not effect their shot). The team is the perfect place for Vince at this stage of his career because the others make it easier for him to get to the rim.

Then look at Cleveland. Take LBJ out of the mix for the moment. What other player on the team is a consistent matchup problem for other teams? Shaq is the only one and he's getting old.

All of these criticisms about LBJ are unfounded. Teams do not have time during the regular season to set their defense to stop LBJ. His penetration and kick when needed results in Cleveland having the best regular season record.

During the playoffs, that changes and Cleveland has no where to go to find a matchup they can exploit. The Celtics built a wall to stop LBJ from penetrating. There is no Howard to shrink the defense because of his inside presence (teams are defending Shaq with one player these days). There's no other big man on the team that poses a threat to other Championship contender teams. That leaves a bunch of spot up guys who need penetration from LBJ in order to get good looks. Didn't happen against the Celtics.

And you can't compare LBJ and what he's doing to the old Bulls when they had Jordan. I like Jordan but the league was different then largely because of the changes in how the cap is managed now. It used to be that two top players was enough to contend. I think you need three matchup threats now.

How do you get LBJ to stay in Cleveland. If I were the GM, I'd be thinking about making some major roster changes. They have good guys now, but not the right mix of guys.

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Cadet04
5/14/2010 3:50:32 PM Report Abuse
@Mamba

There were 4 all-stars in clevelands starting 5 last night.  Plus an All-NBA Defensive 2nd teamer on the bench.  If that isn't enough talent... I don't know what is. 

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Mamba
5/14/2010 4:09:21 PM Report Abuse
@Mamba

Does anyone realize that the Cavs' starting 5 this past season was older than the Celtics' 5?

Does anyone remember the Cavs could have made a move for Stoudemire this year - one of the biggest matchup problems in the league?

Based on talent alone, I don't think Cleveland is a hard team to leave. It is only because of LBJ that the team made the playoffs. I think the Lakers are a playoff team without Kobe (albeit doing it in the West is tougher but certainly in the East). Orlando can win playoff games with Howard on the bench. The Celtics made it with injuries throughout the season and KG recovering form from a serious knee injury.

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kidkrazy
5/14/2010 4:25:28 PM Report Abuse
@UnitedSkins

United Skins, are those Playoff averages?

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MikeSellers45
5/14/2010 4:46:26 PM Report Abuse
@kidkrazy

Road, you're speakin truth man and I like it.

And kidkrazy, I don't think people care as much about Kobe throwin up his hands and all cuz he's got rings, he's clutch as hell, and LeBron's just easier to hate on.

LeBron should just leave - I saw him quit on his team last night, and his team saw it and jumped off the cliff too.  He won't win in Cleveland for years so why not go to New York, Miami, or anywhere and start over and have just about the same chance?  Make some more jersey money with your punk self.

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Mamba
5/14/2010 5:16:19 PM Report Abuse
@MikeSellers45

Cadet -

Which Clev All Star would take over any other All Star in the League excluding LBJ? 

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Twoseam
5/14/2010 9:12:09 PM Report Abuse
@Mamba

I'm with Dores.  The Cavs quit.  If LeBron wants to be a leader, then he has to take responsibility for that.  But once you admit that you stood by while your team quit around you, and then you quit as a result (which he clearly did), you'll never be a leader again.  Regardless of where he ends up, LeBron will never win a championship unless he is on a team with a real grown up in charge, someone who can lead the team from the floor, and whip LeBron into shape the way LeBron was incapable of whipping the Cavs into shape. 

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apman39
5/15/2010 9:47:04 AM Report Abuse
@Twoseam

Lebron is going to go to Chicago.

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Mamba
5/15/2010 1:01:22 PM Report Abuse
@apman39

The Cavs didn't quit. And LBJ certainly didn't quit. They were beaten by a better team - one that won the ship two seasons ago and is playing better right now.

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Cadet04
5/15/2010 1:31:29 PM Report Abuse
@Mamba

Mamba... not a fair comparison... what would be a fair comparison is what Cavs All-star starting 5 member would you take over the Celtics Starting 5 member.  I'd take Shaq over Perkins and Jamison over Garnett if we are talking about matchup problems.  Garnett is not the player he was 2 years ago during the championship run.  This is in no way saying Jamison is a better player... He just is the better compliment to LeBron because he has range out to the 3pt line where Garnett does not.  That lineup was perfectly assembled around him.  Plus, Varejao is a better bench player than anyone on the Celtics bench.

And yes, the cavs did quit with about 2 minutes left.  The entire team gave up on defense midway through the 4th.  It was pathetic.  It wasn't just james, it was everyone.  Mike Brown was SCREAMING on the sideline for them to pressure with 2 minutes left and no one did it.

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InsideandOutSports
5/15/2010 3:14:18 PM Report Abuse
@Cadet04

It's easy to understand why so many people love LeBron, he's fun and amusing to watch. Who doesn't like to watch eye-opening dunks for 48 minutes. However, LeBron isn't the type of player that's hungry enough to get a title. Mamba, are you his agent? LeBron has some of the better supporting players in the league (besides LA and Boston) and still can't get a championship. Don't put in on Mike Brown, or the aging players, it's on LeBron's hands. He's the supposed leader of this team, and he just let them down. I don't like LeBron or Kobe, but atleast Kobe accepted that he let his team down. LeBron's already ready for the off-season and finding a new team and making more money. If he continues with this carefree attitude, nor finds a truly great supporting teammate, he will indeed fail to win a ring in his career. My pick is with Orlando, as someone said above me, they have a true "pick your poison" squad. Pietras and Barnes are great defensive players, Carter take focus away from other guards like Nelson and Redick, and Howard can be unstoppable when he wants it. LeBron needs to give up his number, he's no MJ.

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Mamba
5/15/2010 4:59:09 PM Report Abuse
@InsideandOutSports

Cadet - KG's matchup with Jamison was the key difference in the series. After witnessing that, how do you now take him over KG? That's not even close.

As for who's the better compliment to LBJ - in the playoffs KG is. Rondo was the best penetrator in the series - which is LBJ's game. And KG did great in the midrange game. LBJ needs someone else who can create his own offense in the half court set and not just shoot 3s off of kick outs. Bosh would be a good addition.

I do agree that Shaq is better for LBJ than Perk. But Perk is better for the Celtics given how Rondo is pushing the ball.

Me "LBJ's agent?" LOL! I'm barely a fan. But I never bought into the hype about his wining the Ship this year. I wanted the Celtics to win and they did! I've always liked KG and I'm enjoying him making people forget that he too was once thought incapable of winning a title.

 

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Twoseam
5/16/2010 8:48:57 AM Report Abuse
@Mamba

Mamba, "Cavs didn't quit and LBJ certainly didn't quit?"  You and I were not watching the same series.

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Mamba
5/16/2010 7:45:25 PM Report Abuse
@Twoseam

I think people want to say the Cavs and LBJ quit because they don't think it was possible that LBJ could lose. That is buying into the hype. Maybe people wanted to see players diving on the floor in the final minute to cut the final deficit. Whatever. I don't think it's all that important to argue the point.

I believe the reason the Cavs lost is because the Celtics are a better team.

The Celtics - especially with the win today over Orlando - are giving people a lesson in why playoff basketball in the NBA is different from the regular season.

With Bynum now injured, I wonder what people will say about the Cavs series if the Celtics win the Ship.

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dcsportfan10
5/16/2010 8:18:54 PM Report Abuse
@Mamba

Maybe Lebron quit because Delonte West had Gloria James on speed dial hahaha

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baseball18
5/17/2010 1:04:45 PM Report Abuse
@dcsportfan10

why do people keep talking about the all-star games lebron's teammates have made. what does that matter? first of all, do you know how many average players in the nba have an all-star appearance on their resume??

so shaq and zydrunas ilgauskus have made all-star teams in their careers....are you guys actually trying to argue that those two guys are still above average nba players good enough to win championships? clearly not. antawn jamison is another former all-star on cleveland's team and he too isn't what he was a few years ago. jamison's age has caught up to him--his averages were still ok this year because he played for a terrible wiz team but he not unexpectedly disappeared in the playoffs. that leaves mo williams as the fourth all-star and if mo williams is your second option, you're not winning a title.

thats clevelands great former all-star lineup.

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baseball18
5/17/2010 1:06:16 PM Report Abuse
@baseball18

PS comparing the bulls' and cavs' supporting casts by numbers is foolish. scottie pippen was voted as one of the 50 best players of all time in the nba. that in itself is enough to end that debate. plus the bulls had guys who were perfect for their roles on those teams.

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UnitedSkins
5/17/2010 1:10:49 PM Report Abuse
@baseball18

Shaq is obviously one of the 50 best players in the NBA as well. And look at what happened to Scottie after he didn't have Jordan anymore.

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puma
5/17/2010 1:16:14 PM Report Abuse
@UnitedSkins

Shaq is 38 years old. He isn't half the player he was even in '06. And Pippen was 33 when MJ retired and still had several pretty good years as a Rocket/Blazer. 

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puma
5/17/2010 1:25:34 PM Report Abuse
@puma

Bringing up Zydrunas Ilgauskus's All-Star game appearances is about as relevant to this thread as discussing Wilt Chamberlain's. They made about the same impact on the court this year.

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UnitedSkins
5/17/2010 1:27:45 PM Report Abuse
@puma

Scottie's best season after Jordan retired was averaging 15 and 6.

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puma
5/17/2010 1:52:05 PM Report Abuse
@UnitedSkins

He also averaged 6 assists per game. That's pretty damn good for a 34 year old playing on a good team. But that's not the point. The point is that Shaq was hasn't played at an all-star level since at least 05-06 and Ilgauskas has always been a decent player, nothing more, and is now 34 and his skills have visibly depreciated. 

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UnitedSkins
5/17/2010 2:09:09 PM Report Abuse
@puma

The point isn't that he wasn't a good player. The point is that 15, 6, and 6 doesn't put you among the 50 best players ever. Scottie wouldn't have a legacy if not for Michael Jordan. Either way, I'd take Shaq, Antawn, and Mo Williams over Pippen, Ron Harper, and Luc Longley any day of the week.

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puma
5/17/2010 2:36:54 PM Report Abuse
@UnitedSkins

FIrst of all, 15-6-6 at age 34 is really, really good and he also got All-Defensive First Team that year. It would be a lot more fair to compare his years when MJ was banned from the league. Putting aside this threadjack, the second point you make is a false choice. You're forgetting about Rodman, one of the greatest defensive players and rebounders to ever play the game. Horace Grant was also a great defensive player and put up points too. Look, if you want to think that somehow a 38 year old Shaq, a 33 year old Jamison, and Mo Williams, a pretty good player, but not great by any stretch of the imagination, are somehow better than Pippen, Rodman, Grant, and Paxson, that's your choice, it's just not at all based in fact.

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Cadet04
5/17/2010 3:22:20 PM Report Abuse
@puma

Dammit... that's right... Z is (was) back on the Cavs.  That makes 4 All-Stars surrounding LeBron.  You just made my debate for me.  How can anyone say they didn't surround LeBron with talent.  This is a ridiculous argument.  You're all terrible "witnesses".

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puma
5/17/2010 4:11:52 PM Report Abuse
@Cadet04

Uh, Shaq has played in one all-star game in 3 years, even though he's one of the most popular players in the NBA. He is a below average center in the NBA now. Jamison is 33 and averaged 15 ppg as a Cav, while taking 13.4 shots per game and plays poor defense. That is exactly the kind of player you don't want around a guy like James; a volume shooter who can't play d. Ilgauskas is, frankly, pretty terrible now. Mo Williams is a good player. He also didn't play well in the playoffs. So, yeah, it's not like they surrounded him with Stoudemire and Nash.

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UnitedSkins
5/17/2010 4:27:38 PM Report Abuse
@puma

No, but there are a lot of people who win championships without two of the 20 or 25 best players in the league on their team. You're making it sound like every player on the Cavs but LeBron James just isn't good at basketball at all. At very least, LeBron is surrounded by good players. Maybe not great players, but he is surrounded by a solid group of experienced battle-tested players. And even if his supporting cast is past their prime, he just got eliminated by second oldest team in the league that is full of players that aren't what the used to be.

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MIlitaryRD
5/17/2010 4:42:38 PM Report Abuse
@UnitedSkins

Yea it sucks when your team loses 4-2 to a team of oldies.... You know Old guys, like Shaq. You Know Old Guys? Guess what, not only did they lose, but Lebron wasn't even the Most valuable player in the series as far as i'm concerned. I can not for the life of me understand how anyone could have this debate after seeing how poorly he played, how poor his attitude was, and how much of a Brat he is. Don't say well Jordan didn't have a Championship at his age- Lebron Shouldn't even be allowed to lace up a pair of Jordans yet alone be mentioned in the same sentence as him- and Jordan Did have a championship, In College, against and with True NBA caliber talent.

It is so frustrating to sit here and listen to the constant comparisons and constant Crap i hear about How Lebron James is-

Guess what, In one on One. I'll take Lebron against anyone in the game. But in 5 v 5, I'll take the team that has one of these 3 other guys, Including Bryant, D. Howard, D. Wade why? because they are better Basketball players that Lebron James- And why are they better? Because basketball takes 5 guys, and those three previous mentioned, make the other four on the Court Better than they are- Lebron Does, has, and hasn't shown any promise of doing so-

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puma
5/17/2010 4:49:01 PM Report Abuse
@UnitedSkins

No, but there are a lot of people who win championships without two of the 20 or 25 best players in the league on their team. 

Name me them. Honestly, name them. Lebron plays with one guy who is a borderline top-100 guy in the NBA. No other player has won a ring with a roster like that. 2009- Kobe had Pau, who is easily top-50, let alone Bynum and Ariza playing out of his mind. 2008- Pierce and Garnett. 2007- Duncan, Parker, Ginobili. 2006- Wade and Shaq. 2005- Duncan, Ginobili, Parker. 2004- Billups, Wallace, Hamilton, Prince. 2003- Duncan, Parker, Robinson, Jackson. 2000-2002- Kobe and Shaq. 1999- Duncan and Robinson. 1996-1998- Jordan and Pippen.  1995- Olajuwon, Smith and Drexler. 1994- Olajuwon and Smith. 1991-1993- Jordan and Pippen. 1990- Dumars, Rodman, and Isiah. I really could go on, but I think you get the point. You pretty much have to have either two hall-of-famers or one hall-of famer and several extremely good role players. Not the guys who were traded to the Cavs because their teams wanted to unload money like Lebron has. 

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UnitedSkins
5/17/2010 5:53:14 PM Report Abuse
@puma

There are absolutely no hall-of-famers on the '04 Pistons, so I don't know what your argument is there. And Pippen wouldn't be a Hall of Famer if he didn't spend his career riding MJ's coattails.

"You pretty much have to have either two hall-of-famers or one hall-of famer and several extremely good role players."

I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree that Mo Williams, Shaq, Antawn, Varejao, Ilgauskus, Anthony Parker, and Delonte West isn't a set of good role players. That looks fine to me. If LeBron is really what everyone is cracking him up to be, then that's enough. Whether or not he is what everyone cracks him up to be is another issue. His players are past their prime? Great. So are the Celtics and the Suns who both managed to get to their Conference Finals. Saying that his supporting cast is old isn't a good enough excuse when the team that just eliminated them starts three guys who are over 32. The bench is old too. Sheed? 35. Tony Allen? 28. Michael Finley? 37.

Despite the fact that the Cavs are a younger team than the Celtics and that the Cavs had the best player on either team, the Celtics managed to win. Why? Because the Celtics play like a team. The Cavs have plenty of players that can make plays if you let them. Antawn was averaging 20 and 9 before he got traded this year. Mo Williams averaged 16, 3, and 5. Shaq averaged 18 and 8 last year and led the league in shooting percentage. Anthony Parker is one of the league's best 3 point shooters. He has enough talent around him. At least to get to the Finals if not to win them. He certainly has enough to get through the second round of the playoffs.

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puma
5/17/2010 8:34:30 PM Report Abuse
@UnitedSkins

There are absolutely no hall-of-famers on the '04 Pistons, so I don't know what your argument is there. And Pippen wouldn't be a Hall of Famer if he didn't spend his career riding MJ's coattails.

I mean, you could argue about Sheed and possibly Billups, but you're right. There is an exception to every rule. That doesn't change the fact that in that year they had four players playing at a very high level and Ben Wallace playing at a very high level defensively. About Pippen, um, no. He was voted one of the NBA's top-50 players of all-time. The "if" argument is always retarded. 


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puma
5/17/2010 8:42:44 PM Report Abuse
@puma

I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree that Mo Williams, Shaq, Antawn, Varejao, Ilgauskus, Anthony Parker, and Delonte West isn't a set of good role players. That looks fine to me. If LeBron is really what everyone is cracking him up to be, then that's enough. Whether or not he is what everyone cracks him up to be is another issue. His players are past their prime? Great. So are the Celtics and the Suns who both managed to get to their Conference Finals. Saying that his supporting cast is old isn't a good enough excuse when the team that just eliminated them starts three guys who are over 32. The bench is old too. Sheed? 35. Tony Allen? 28. Michael Finley? 37.

Again, I just proved it wasn't enough if you don't have great role players around a star. The Celtics have Rondo, a stud, and surround him with Ray Allen, still one of the best shooters in the game, Pierce who can still take over a game at any moment, and Garnett who's still effective on the low block. Lebron does not have anyone who's effective on the low block. I don't think you understand. Shaq was past his prime in 2005. It's now 2010. He's basically done and just getting by on his gigantic body and what little remains of his athleticism. KG, Paul Pierce, and Ray Allen are better right now than anyone on Cleveland not named Lebron. That bench is fine if your starting five is more talented than Cleveland's. The Suns? They have two players who are old- Nash and Hill- and both of them are enjoying a Renaissance unlike anyone that played in Cleveland. 

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puma
5/17/2010 8:53:23 PM Report Abuse
@puma

Despite the fact that the Cavs are a younger team than the Celtics and that the Cavs had the best player on either team, the Celtics managed to win. Why? Because the Celtics play like a team. The Cavs have plenty of players that can make plays if you let them. Antawn was averaging 20 and 9 before he got traded this year. Mo Williams averaged 16, 3, and 5. Shaq averaged 18 and 8 last year and led the league in shooting percentage. Anthony Parker is one of the league's best 3 point shooters. He has enough talent around him. At least to get to the Finals if not to win them. He certainly has enough to get through the second round of the playoffs.

I'm gonna forget the ridiculously subjective "team" portion of your argument. If you use Occam's Razor, it's a lot simpler to just reason that the Celtics have more talent. 

As for Jamison, he averaged that on one of, if not the worst team, in the NBA. All of his averages dropped when he went to the Cavs. Mo Williams actually averaged just 13.3 ppg against the Celtics and his shooting percentages dropped to 41% from the field and just 21% from three. If the second best player on your team is averaging those numbers, you're in trouble. Shaq averaged 18 and 8 playing in the Suns SSOL offense. In the playoffs he averaged 11.5 and 5. Anthony Parker actually did play fairly well though.

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Cadet04
5/17/2010 9:41:34 PM Report Abuse
@puma

Puma ... you know what... when you're right you're right. 

Except when you're not, but act like you are.

Jamison's numbers did drop after joining LeBron.  True. 

His shooting percentage went up from .450 with the wizards to .481 with the cavs.  So yeah, while his points and rebounds went down... don't you think that might have to do with LeBron?  Not his own skill.  Ya know... since his shooting percentage went up .31? 

Listen, you can argue all you want that the talent around LeBron this year didn't have an All-Star and they were old.  LeBron was the MVP.  None of Boston's players even finished with a 5th place vote. 

So let's get this straight, break it all down:

Cleveland:

James: Back-to-back MVP, 6-time All-Star (As Recent as 2010), 6-time All-NBA (As recent as 2010 on 1st team), 2-time All Defensive First Team (As recent as 2010).

O'Neal: MVP (2000), 15-time All-Star (As Recent as 2009), 14-time All-NBA (As Recent as 2009 on 3rd team), 3-time All Defensive Team (2003)

Jamison: 2-time All Star (As Recent as 2008)

Williams: 2009 All-Star

Parker: T-12 (With Paul Pierce) in NBA in 3pt%

Bench: Ilgauskas - 2-time All-Star (2003/05), Varejao - All NBA Defensive 2nd team (2010), Hickson - Good Young Prospect Cavs refused to give up in trades, Gibson - 3rd in NBA in 3pt%

Boston:

Pierce: 8-time All-Star (2010), 4-time All-NBA (2nd Team in 2009), T-12th in 3pt%

R. Allen: 9-time All Star (2009), 2-time All-NBA (2nd team in 2005)

Garnett: MVP in 2004, 13-time All Star (2010), 9-time All-NBA ( 2nd team in 2008), 10-time All Defensive Team (1st team in 2009).

Rondo: 2010 All-Star, 2-time All Defensive (1st team in 2010)

Perkins: Led NBA in FG% in 2010

Bench: Wallace- 4-time All-Star (2008), Finley- 2-time All Star (2001), Robinson, Davis, Allen - No accolades or top in the league.

I don't believe you that LeBron doesn't have talent around him.  Jamison could have made an All-Star appearance each of the last two years as well if he wasn't playing on an awful team like the Wizards were the last two years.  LeBron had two of the top 12 3-point shooters in the league alongside him.  Pierce was the only Celtic in the top 40.  Shaq, despite you saying he was washed up was All-NBA 3rd teamer the year before, just like Pierce.

This whole debate is riduclous.  LeBron has effing talent around him.

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puma
5/18/2010 9:58:20 AM Report Abuse
@Cadet04

First of all, in this argument career achievements mean nothing. It's all about how you were playing during the conference semis. Jamison's numbers against the Celtics- 42% from the field, 19% from three, 11.8 ppg and 7 rebounds. That is the Cavs third best player. Combine that with Mo Wiliams' 41% from the field, 21% from three, 13.3 ppg, and 5.5 apg. That is the Cavs second best player. The Cavs fourth best player, Shaq, averaged 13.5 and 5 against the C's. Compare that to Ray Allen's 15.7 and 33% from three, KG's 18.8 and 8, and Pierce's 13.5 and 5(that's right, Paul Pierce averaged the same number of rebounds as Cleveland's starting center).  Lebron averaged 26.8, 9.3 rebounds, and 7 apg. In his conference semi, Kobe averaged 5 more ppg, but more than 5 less rebounds and 1.5 less apg than Lebron.he Cavs role players played like crap and aren't very good anyway, that's why they lost. This loss had very little to do with LBJ. 

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NtheKnow
5/13/2010 11:59:22 PM Report Abuse
@Cadet04

now that's mean... tear his achilles...ugh!

lebron and cavs got steamrolled by the celtics. the cavs will be dismantled...no championships in cleveland!

might as well head to NY or Chicago...still a long shot to get 'ship.

lakers vs orlando in the finals.

LeBron is now a spectator

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Cadet04
5/14/2010 12:02:02 AM Report Abuse
@NtheKnow

now that's mean... tear his achilles...ugh! -NtheKnow

What are you a 12 year old girl?  Mean?  Oh... I'm sorry... I don't care about his every move.  If you do... go be a "witness" and tell me how great it is.  I'll continue my life counting down the days til football season. 

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KFlaherty22
5/14/2010 12:59:40 AM Report Abuse
@Cadet04

Celtics play as a team.. all of them.. look at Tony Allens performance all series.. I'd love him to stay with the Celtics cuz he is vital, but he is the type of guy who has earned himself some respect and some money if he ever decides to go elsewhere, like a Trevor Ariza of last year..

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tiger
5/14/2010 2:30:40 AM Report Abuse
@KFlaherty22

LeBron needs a Jumper real quick

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pbuckley
5/14/2010 6:48:09 AM Report Abuse
@tiger

The Cavs need a new coach

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smdeagles
5/14/2010 7:17:08 AM Report Abuse
@pbuckley

He will be back in Cleveland....the coach will take the fall for this one.  He is still the most dominant individual player in the NBA.  The hype machine gets to be too much at times and makes him easy to dislike but he is a great player and any team would be lucky to have him.  The Jamison/Shack support staff was about 3 years too late because of age.  Look for the Cavs to add another couple pieces and be right back in the thick of it.  He had a triple double last night.  Anyone that can think for themselves can see that he is a great player.

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swimjoint92
5/14/2010 7:57:03 AM Report Abuse
@smdeagles

In game 5 and 6 he looked way too timid.  Whenever he got the ball he looked to pass.  He lost confidence in his scoring ability and it showed.  He'll be back next year in cleveland and he will do fine.  He'll rebound quickly.

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